SitePoint播客＃39：Alex Payne的网络期货
Episode 39 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week, Kevin Yank (@sentience) catches up with Twitter API Lead Alex Payne @al3x at Edge of the Web 2009 to discuss current trends in the technologies we use to build the Web, and where they may be leading. A complete transcript of the interviews is provided below.
SitePoint Podcast的 第39集现已发布！ 本周，Kevin Yank( @sentience )在Edge of Web 2009上与Twitter API负责人Alex Payne @ al3x会面 ，讨论了我们用于构建Web的技术的最新趋势以及它们可能在什么方面领先。 下面提供了采访的完整笔录。
下载此剧集 (Download this Episode)
You can also download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:
您也可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：
SitePoint Podcast #39: Web Futures with Alex Payne(MP3, 18.5MB)SitePoint Podcast＃39：Alex Payne的网络期货(MP3，18.5MB)
面试成绩单 (Interview Transcript)
Kevin: December 4th, 2009. Twitter’s API Lead shares his thoughts on where the technologies we use to build the Web are leading. This is the SitePoint Podcast #39: Web Futures with Alex Payne.
凯文： 2009年12月4日。Twitter的API Lead分享了他对我们用于构建Web的技术处于领先地位的看法。 这是SitePoint播客＃39：Alex Payne的网络期货。
Kevin: This is Kevin Yank for the SitePoint podcast in Perth for the Edge of the Web conference and I’m here with Alex Payne, one of the developers, in fact, the lead developer behind the Twitter API. Is that right?
凯文(Kevin)：我是珀斯(Perth) 在Web边缘会议上的SitePoint播客的凯文·扬克(Kevin Yank)，我和其中一位开发人员，实际上是Twitter API背后的首席开发人员Alex Payne在一起。 那正确吗？
Alex: Yep, that’s me.
亚历克斯：是的，就是我。
Kevin: I guess a lot of people, when they get to meet you, they immediately think about the Twitter API and all the things that’s made possible; from your perspective, what does Twitter’s API mean to Twitter?
凯文：我想有很多人，当他们见到你时，他们会立即想到Twitter API和所有可能的事情。 从您的角度来看，Twitter的API对Twitter意味着什么？
Alex: For us, it’s meant the flexibility to focus on what we do best or at least what we’d like to do best. It’s meant that over the last couple of years when we’ve been focusing on scaling the service and trying to add really high value features, things like lists that we just rolled out, that people have been asking for ages that we can dive in on the user experience and the performance of features like that and things that are a little bit more narrow or a little bit more nichey, developers can make use of the API and kind of build up those tools for themselves and for their users.
亚历克斯：对我们来说，这意味着可以灵活地专注于我们最擅长的事情，或者至少专注于我们想要做的最好的事情。 这意味着在过去几年中，我们一直专注于扩展服务并尝试添加真正高价值的功能，例如我们刚刚推出的列表，人们一直在要求我们可以适应的年龄用户体验和诸如此类的功能的性能以及更狭窄或更利基的事物，开发人员可以利用API并为自己和用户构建这些工具。
Kevin: So it enables the users to, in a sense, tell you by implementing things how it is they want to use the service.
凯文：因此，从某种意义上说，它使用户可以通过实施事情来告诉您他们想如何使用该服务。
Alex: Yes, definitely.
亚历克斯：是的，当然可以。
Kevin: So your talk was more general. It was really about where we’ve come from in web technology and where we may be going. One of the things you mentioned that really peeked my interest was that more and more web services like Twitter can and should explore an API-first methodology, that they can build their API and then “eat their own dog food,” you said, in building their web user interface. Would you say this is the approach that was taken at Twitter and can you think of any other examples where that sort of approach has worked?
凯文：所以你的发言更笼统。 这实际上是关于我们在Web技术中来自何处以及我们可能走向何方。 您提到的让我真正感兴趣的一件事是，越来越多的Web服务(例如Twitter)可以并且应该探索API优先的方法，它们可以构建自己的API，然后“吃自己的狗食”。建立他们的网络用户界面。 您是否可以说这是Twitter采取的方法，您能想到其他使用这种方法的示例吗？
Alex: Well, I’ve heard from folks on the Flickr team that that’s kind of how they’ve approached their architecture. It’s not the approach we took at Twitter. Our API kind of fell out of our user-facing application and if we could kind of do it all over again, I think I would rather have started from the API first in part because that’s been our primary source of traffic and in part because dealing with the issues of an API, the design issues, the performance issues kind of really shores up your thinking about your system.
亚历克斯：好吧，我从Flickr团队的人那里听说过，这就是他们对待建筑的方式。 这不是我们在Twitter上采取的方法。 我们的API从我们面向用户的应用程序中消失了，如果我们可以再做一遍，我想我宁愿先从API开始，部分原因是那是我们的主要流量来源，部分是因为交易关于API的问题，设计问题，性能问题，确实可以帮助您思考系统。
Kevin: I’m a tech guy, what would you say is the technology mix at Twitter? I’m thinking not just the web languages you guys use, but I mean, are you all Mac people at Twitter?
凯文：我是技术专家，您会说Twitter的技术组合是什么？ 我不仅在考虑你们使用的网络语言，而且我的意思是，你们都在Twitter上使用Mac吗？
Alex: For the most part, yeah. I think everyone now is running on Apple hardware, all of our engineers. We have a couple of people who boot into Linux day to day but for the most part, we’re all Mac folks.
亚历克斯：在大多数情况下，是的。 我认为现在所有的工程师，每个人都在Apple硬件上运行。 我们有一些人每天都开始使用Linux，但是大多数情况下，我们都是Mac。
Kevin: Cool. And you mentioned in your talk basically that at one point you were working on a pre-PowerPC Mac, so you must have been through the bad days of being a Mac user.
凯文：很酷。 在您的演讲中，您基本上提到过，有一点是您在使用PowerPC之前的Mac，所以您一定经历了成为Mac用户的艰难时期。
Alex: Yeah. I think that was a Performa 575 years and years ago and shortly thereafter, I had gotten my first Wintel hardware and went off into the land of Linux until OS X improved enough that people could actually use it.
亚历克斯：是的。 我认为这是575年前和几年前的绩效，此后不久，我获得了我的第一个Wintel硬件，并进入Linux领域，直到OS X改进到足以使人们实际使用它为止。
Kevin: Okay, so you did move back and forth?
凯文：好的，你确实来回走了吗？
Alex: Yeah, and I’m glad I did. I mean I think like a lot of Mac folks, we all had that sort of crisis of faith for a few years and went off and learned Linux and it ended up being sort of a career asset, you know?
亚历克斯：是的，我很高兴我做到了。 我的意思是，我认为像许多Mac人士一样，我们都经历了几年的这种信仰危机，后来又去学习Linux，它最终成为一种职业资产，您知道吗？
Kevin: Have your reasons for using the Mac today, are they different than the reasons you were using a Mac back then?
凯文：您今天使用Mac的原因是否与您当时使用Mac的原因不同？
Alex: I mean back then it happened to be what was around the house. Today it’s more that nobody else has that kind of out-of-the-box, everything works experience and nobody else produces hardware of that quality which is just baffling. Like some days, I would actually prefer to be running on Linux so I could do weird things like run a tiling window manager but looking around at non-Apple hardware, nobody’s making good stuff even if you want to spend $2,500, it’s just really hard to get a nice machine.
亚历克斯：我的意思是那时候恰好是房子周围的东西。 如今，更多的人没有那种开箱即用的东西，一切都能正常工作，没有人能提供那种令人困惑的质量的硬件。 就像有些日子，我实际上更喜欢在Linux上运行，所以我可以做一些奇怪的事情，例如运行平铺窗口管理器，但是环顾非Apple硬件，即使您想花费2500美元，也没人能做出好成绩，这真的很难得到一台不错的机器。
Kevin: Yeah, one of the last Mac hold-outs at the SitePoint office, ironically, was our designer and recently, he just went out looking for a laptop and was not at all planning to get a Mac but he couldn’t find a good quality PC laptop and ended up buying a Mac for that reason.
凯文(Kevin)：是的，具有讽刺意味的是，SitePoint办公室的最后一批Mac产品保留者是我们的设计师，最近，他只是出去寻找笔记本电脑，根本不打算购买Mac，但他找不到笔记本电脑。优质的PC笔记本电脑，因此购买了Mac。
Alex: Yeah, it’s really, really surprising. I don’t know what the Dells and Sonys of the world are thinking but it’s very odd.
亚历克斯：是的，这真的非常令人惊讶。 我不知道世界上的戴尔和索尼在想什么，但这很奇怪。
Kevin: So one of the distinctions you drew when talking about the various web programming languages that are out there in the mix today is you distinguished between languages that are general purpose languages that are being used on the Web versus languages, like PHP and JavaScript, that were conceived for the Web, and you mentioned that there’s a tendency for these made-for-the-Web languages to have a shorter life span. Why do you think that is?
凯文：因此，当您谈论当今混合使用的各种Web编程语言时，您要区分的一个就是，您区分了网络上使用的通用语言和PHP和JavaScript等语言，这些都是为Web设计的，您提到过，这些“按Web定制”的语言有较短的使用寿命。 你为什么这么认为呢？
Alex: Well, not necessarily a shorter life span but at least that they tend to be kind of roundly criticized. People have complained for years about PHP encouraging bad development habits and being a very haphazardly designed language and people have complained about JavaScript having this object model that’s very different than most of the rest of the programming language world and having oddities and that sort of thing.
亚历克斯：嗯，不一定会缩短寿命，但至少他们会受到种种批评。 多年来，人们一直抱怨PHP会鼓励不良的开发习惯，并且是一种非常随意的设计语言，而人们抱怨JavaScript的对象模型与大多数编程语言世界大不相同，并且具有怪异之类的东西。
Kevin: Speaking of oddities, we’ve got some noise happening here, but go on.
凯文：说到奇怪，我们这里有些杂音，但是继续。
Alex: So I think the part of the reason for that is the folks who’ve worked on more general purpose languages have had to satisfy users in a variety of different fields. They have academic users, scientific users, people building desktop software, people building server site software, and I think it kind of rounds a language out, it forces like Guido van Rossum’s or the Matz’s of the world to kind of expand beyond their initial concept of the language and figure out how do we improve the API’s, how do we improve the core libraries, that kind of thing. If a language is targeted at the Web and it has this more narrow audience, I think you never see that kind of cross-communication between programmers and different disciplines. Like PHP got a lot better when you could first start using PHP for client side or, sorry, for like command line scripting and that sort of thing. Suddenly, the language felt a little bit more robust and now I think JavaScript is going through that process as well now that people are using things like the Rhino JavaScript virtual machine for doing server side coding. It seems like they’re rethinking the language and kind of improving it.
亚历克斯：因此，我认为部分原因是从事更通用语言工作的人们不得不满足各种不同领域的用户的需求。 他们有学术用户，科学用户，开发桌面软件的人们，开发服务器站点软件的人们，我认为这是一种全面的语言，它像世界上的Guido van Rossum或Matz一样迫使他们超越最初的概念语言，并弄清楚我们如何改进API，如何改进核心库等。 如果一种语言是针对Web的并且它的受众范围比较狭窄，那么我认为您永远不会看到程序员与不同学科之间的这种交叉交流。 当您第一次开始在客户端使用PHP时，或者对于诸如命令行脚本之类的东西，对不起，PHP变得更好。 突然，该语言变得更加健壮，现在我认为JavaScript也正在经历该过程，因为人们正在使用Rhino JavaScript虚拟机之类的东西来进行服务器端编码。 似乎他们在重新思考语言，并在某种程度上进行了改进。
Kevin: So the more use cases the stronger the language tends to get.
凯文：因此，用例越多，语言越趋于强大。
Alex: Seems that way, yeah.
亚历克斯：好像是这样。
Kevin: On that point, and this is something you mentioned also in your talk that on the Web it seems like the best technology isn’t always the one that wins, and this is something that Mark Pilgrim brought up this week when looking at old list posts about the
凯文：关于这一点，您在演讲中也提到过，在网络上似乎最好的技术并不总是赢家，这是马克·皮尔格里姆本周提出的。列出有关
Alex: I don’t know. I go back and forth on this. I mean it’s kind of age old debate in technology, it goes back to Guy Steele “worse is better” kind of stuff. I think where it’s useful on the Web is that we’re going through such a constant period of evolution, kind of sloughing off the old skin, that if the technologies we’re using today are a little bit flawed, it’s easier to make the migration to the next set of technologies. If we had perfect solutions or solutions that even covered like the 80% or 90% case, it would be much harder every three or four years to kind of reinvent the Web, reinvent how we do all this.
亚历克斯：不知道。 我对此进行反复讨论。 我的意思是，这是技术界的古老争论，可以追溯到盖伊·斯蒂尔(Guy Steele)的“越差越好”的话题。 我认为在Web上有用的地方是，我们经历了这样一个持续不断的发展时期，从旧皮上掉下来了，如果我们今天使用的技术有些瑕疵，那么使迁移到下一组技术。 如果我们有完美的解决方案，甚至覆盖80％或90％的解决方案，那么每三到四年就很难重新发明Web，重新发明我们如何做这一切。
Kevin: Another issue you touched on in your talk was that we’re moving into this age where rather than learning languages, more and more people are learning frameworks built on top of languages and the cost that comes with that. How do you, as a programmer, personally guard yourself against those costs? How do you hedge your bets? What’s your approach to that?
凯文：您在演讲中谈到的另一个问题是，我们正在进入这个时代，而不是学习语言，越来越多的人正在学习基于语言及其成本的框架。 作为程序员，您如何亲自防范这些费用？ 您如何对冲您的赌注？ 您的处理方式是什么？
Alex: What I’ve tried to do over the last several years is, I mean, I’ve spent a lot of my day job working in Ruby on Rails, which has been, for the most part, incredibly productive, we’ve just gotten a ton of work done in that framework at Twitter, but outside, I’ve spent a lot of time learning about other programming languages, trying to look at problems outside of the web space, and particularly problems that are a little bit lower level so that it kind of balances out. You have that very high level framework-orientated thinking where you’re just focused on “how do I accomplish these business goals for the Web in as little time as possible?” It’s one way of thinking, but then saying how am I going to implement an entire programming language or even looking at problems in the security space that I used to work in. It just gives you a very different perspective.
亚历克斯：过去几年我一直在努力，我的意思是，我在Ruby on Rails上度过了很多日常工作，这在很大程度上使我们取得了令人难以置信的生产力刚刚在Twitter上在该框架上完成了大量工作，但是在外面，我花了很多时间来学习其他编程语言，试图着眼于Web空间之外的问题，尤其是稍微低一点的问题。水平，以便平衡。 您具有非常高度的面向框架的思想，而您只是在关注“如何在尽可能短的时间内完成Web的这些业务目标？” 这是一种思维方式，但是然后说出我将如何实现一种完整的编程语言，或者甚至看待我曾经工作过的安全领域中的问题。它只是为您提供了一个截然不同的观点。
Kevin: You as an API developer, a creator of an API, must have a unique perspective because people with so many different tools in so many different languages are consuming that API. So you have to build something that works naturally whether the consuming party is a Rails developer, a PHP developer?
凯文(Kevin)：作为API开发人员，API的创建者，您必须具有独特的见解，因为拥有使用多种不同语言的众多工具的人们正在使用该API。 因此，无论使用方是Rails开发人员还是PHP开发人员，您都必须构建一种自然运行的工具？
Alex: Well, I mean, thankfully, since Twitter is more or less a RESTful API, there are conventions in most languages for dealing with RESTful web services, so we kind of get the benefit of all of that thinking.
Alex：好吧，我的意思是，谢天谢地，由于Twitter或多或少是RESTful API，因此大多数语言中都有用于处理RESTful Web服务的约定，因此我们可以从所有这些思想中受益。
Kevin: So you just finished up a book for O’Reilly about the Scala language, sell me on the Scala language.
凯文：所以您刚为O'Reilly写了一本有关Scala语言的书，以Scala语言卖给我。
Alex: Okay, so Scala in a nutshell: the advantages are that you’ve got object-oriented programming that everyone already knows and is comfortable with, you’ve got functional programming, which a lot of people have had a little bit of exposure to, but generally, they found that the syntax or the libraries in the functional language that you learned be a Lisp or Occam or Haskell or whatever were a little bit lacking. And the nice thing about Scala is that because it builds on the JVM and is completely interoperable with all those libraries, you can immediately take advantage of 10, 12 years of Java history. So we might think of Java as maybe not the sexiest language anymore but there’s a great collection of libraries that have been written over the years, people have been solving really hard problems in Java for a decade, and in Scala you can work in a beautiful language that looks a little bit more like Ruby or Python or something that more developers are comfortable in but you still get the benefit of all the JVM goodness.
Alex：好的，因此，Scala简而言之：优点是您拥有了每个人都已经知道并熟悉的面向对象的编程，并且拥有了函数式编程，很多人对此有一些了解。但通常，他们发现您所学习的功能语言中的语法或库是Lisp或Occam或Haskell或其他缺少的东西。 Scala的优点在于，因为它基于JVM构建并且可以与所有这些库完全互操作，所以您可以立即利用10到12年的Java历史。 因此，我们可能会认为Java不再是最性感的语言，但是多年来已经编写了许多库，十年来人们一直在解决Java中非常棘手的问题，而在Scala中，您可以以漂亮的方式工作这种语言看起来更像Ruby或Python，或者让更多的开发人员感到满意，但是您仍然可以从所有JVM优点中受益。
Kevin: It sounds almost like it has some of the strings that made PHP such a success in that PHP, when it became popular was when they added the object-oriented features but they were optional. In the same way, Scala gives the functional programming stuff but you don’t have to leave behind all your skills and history.
凯文：听起来好像它具有使PHP如此成功的一些字符串，当PHP流行时是他们添加了面向对象的功能，但是它们是可选的。 同样，Scala提供了函数式编程的东西，但您不必抛弃所有的技能和历史。
Alex: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I know a lot of people are interested in Erlang as kind of a first functional language, and Erlang is great and it’s particularly great for a kind of network service problems but it’s much more restrictive. Everything has to be immutable. So you assign a variable once, you can’t assign it again. It’s a very different way of thinking than we’re used to in a lot of OOP languages and it’s very specific about having this kind of odd Prolog-derived syntax and all the rest of it. With Scala, it’s a little bit more forgiving. The language leaves a little bit more up to the programmer about whether you want to work in an object paradigm or functional paradigm, whether you want to solve concurrency problems with the more Erlang-style actor model or whether you want to go back to traditional Java threading and that kind of thing.
亚历克斯：是的，是的。 我的意思是，我知道很多人都对Erlang感兴趣，因为它是第一种功能语言，Erlang非常棒，对于某种网络服务问题特别有用，但它的限制要严格得多。 一切都必须是不变的。 因此，您一次分配一个变量，就无法再次分配它。 这与我们在许多OOP语言中所惯用的思维方式截然不同，并且对于使用这种奇怪的Prolog派生的语法以及所有其他语法非常具体。 有了Scala，它会更加宽容。 对于您是否要在对象范式或函数范式中工作，是否要使用更多的Erlang风格的actor模型来解决并发性问题，还是要回到传统的Java语言，该语言还有待程序员解决。线程之类的事情。
Kevin: And because it’s on the JVM you have the freedom if you can build a particular module in Java and then use something like Scala to access it.
凯文：由于它在JVM上，因此您可以自由地使用Java构建特定的模块，然后使用Scala之类的东西来访问它。
Alex: Yeah, exactly. Like if you’re working in a Java stack like Hadoop, you’ve got all the power of Hadoop available to you. You can just call into it seamlessly from Scala. Things like that are a big time saver.
亚历克斯：是的，是的。 就像在Hadoop之类的Java堆栈中工作一样，您将获得Hadoop的全部功能。 您可以从Scala无缝调用它。 这样的事情可以节省大量时间。
Kevin: So, as you said, Scala is it runs on the JVM, what are your thoughts on the JVM as a platform? Clearly, it’s got many years behind it and it’s a solid, powerful foundation, but I don’t know, I’m not as confident in Sun as I used to be. Do you feel like the JVM has freed itself enough of Sun that if worst comes to worst and Sun was to collapse, would the JVM leave on in a satisfactory way?
凯文：所以，正如您所说，Scala是在JVM上运行的，您对JVM作为平台有何看法？ 显然，它已经落后了很多年，而且它是一个坚实而强大的基础，但是我不知道，我对Sun的信心不如从前。 您是否觉得JVM释放了足够多的Sun能量，以至于如果最坏情况变得更糟并且Sun崩溃了，JVM是否会以令人满意的方式继续运行？
Alex: I think so. I mean I was at the JVM Language Summit a few months back and I’m not a JVM expert by any stretch but it seems like between Sun and IBM and all the rest of the folks who are dependent on the Java Ecosystem that someone will pick up the JVM mantle. There’s too much good engineering in there and there’s now the OpenJDK project as well as other various JVM distributions. So I think there’s quite a lot of choice.
亚历克斯：我是这样认为的。 我的意思是几个月前我参加了JVM语言峰会，但我绝不是JVM专家，但似乎在Sun和IBM以及依赖Java生态系统的所有其他人之间，有人会选择JVM外壳。 那里有太多好的工程，现在有了OpenJDK项目以及其他各种JVM发行版。 所以我认为有很多选择。
Kevin: In addition to functional languages, one of the other, sort of “stabs in the dark” predictions about the future you made was that service-oriented architectures are going to come into their own, the idea that we’re going to become comfortable enough building reusable components of software for the Web that we will start to be able to plug them together in consistent and standard ways. It seems this is just like functional languages we’ve always heard, “Oh, next year they’re really going to catch on.” These ideas of clean software components particularly in the Web, it always seems to be about one year away and then just as things settle down, the hand coders kick in with something new and exciting. For a while, their WYSIWYG seemed like it was almost going to be a reasonable way to work and then suddenly a CSS layout caught on and no, no, back to hand coding.
凯文：除了功能语言之外，另一种关于您的未来的“黑暗中的预言”是面向服务的体系结构将成为一种自己的想法，即我们将成为足够舒适地构建用于Web的可重用软件组件，我们将开始能够以一致且标准的方式将它们连接在一起。 似乎就像我们一直听到的功能语言一样，“哦，明年它们将真正流行起来。” 这些清洁软件组件的想法，尤其是在Web中，似乎总是相距大约一年的时间，然后随着事情的发展，手工编码器开始带来一些新的令人兴奋的东西。 有一阵子，他们的所见即所得似乎几乎是一种合理的工作方式，然后突然出现了CSS布局，并且没有，没有，要进行手工编码。
Alex: Yeah.
亚历克斯：是的。
Kevin: Is there another wave of hand coding craziness coming that’s going to wash this SOA away?
凯文：是否还会有另一波手工编码疯狂的浪潮将这种SOA淘汰掉？
Alex: It’s entirely possible, yeah. In fact, I think in some ways, the JVM language thing might spur that on a little bit. I’ve seen more and more of the programmers that I follow on Twitter pick up things like Clojure and people are building these micro-web frameworks in Clojure that kind of closely mirror what people have been doing in the Ruby community for the last couple of years and the whole approach is very like every project is very lightweight, very bespoke, you just sort of put this thin veneer on top of other libraries and hack something together and Lisp has sort of always encouraged that, that very, more sort of agile like playful development methodology rather than this big enterprisey SOA kind of thing. So if more and more programmers are jumping on that kind of bandwagon, then I think you’re absolutely right. We may see another wave “well, let’s just hack it together until it works and then move on to the next interesting problem.” That’s always a fundamental part of the hacker culture, right?
亚历克斯：完全有可能，是的。 实际上，我认为从某些方面来说，JVM语言可能会起到一点推动作用。 我已经看到越来越多的我在Twitter上关注的程序员选择Clojure之类的东西，而人们正在Clojure中构建这些微型Web框架，这种框架与人们在最近两个世纪中在Ruby社区所做的工作密切相关。多年的经验，整个方法就像每个项目都非常轻巧，非常定制，您只是将薄薄的贴面放在其他库的顶部，然后将某些东西合并在一起，Lisp总是鼓励这种敏捷的方式像有趣的开发方法论，而不是这种大型企业级SOA。 因此，如果越来越多的程序员跳上这种潮流，那么我认为您是绝对正确的。 我们可能会看到另一波浪：“好吧，让我们一起破解它，直到它起作用，然后继续研究下一个有趣的问题。” 那始终是黑客文化的基本组成部分，对吧？
Kevin: I’ve one last question and it has to do with the idea that as web services, these services are being built and it seems like, especially in the case of things like Twitter, the non-web user interfaces— As you said, you found it easier to explain to your mom I think, how Twitter worked when it was a desktop client that looked like instant messaging rather than a web page. Are we ever going to get to the point where a web service will not need to have a web UI and it’s a pure web service and that the primary user interface isn’t in a web browser? I know Cameron Adams who’s one of the designers behind Google Wave was speaking about a month ago at Web Directions South and he said the most interesting challenge he had as the front end designer for the Wave web client was that he needed to make something that was good enough that would attract people to the Wave service but not so good that it would quash that market for third party non-web clients.
凯文：我还有最后一个问题，这与以下想法有关：作为Web服务，这些服务正在构建中，并且看起来，尤其是在诸如Twitter之类的情况下，非Web用户界面-如您所说， ，您发现更容易向妈妈解释，我认为Twitter是台式机客户端，看起来像即时消息传递而不是网页时，Twitter是如何工作的。 我们是否将要到达一个点，即Web服务将不需要Web UI，而它是纯Web服务，并且主用户界面不在Web浏览器中？ 我知道Google Wave背后的设计师之一卡梅隆·亚当斯(Cameron Adams)大约一个月前在Web Directions South上发表讲话，他说，作为Wave网络客户端的前端设计师，他面临的最有趣的挑战是他需要做一些足够好，足以吸引人们使用Wave服务，但效果却不佳，无法为第三方非网络客户消除这一市场。
Can we get to the point where the web browser isn’t the most important thing for a web service?
我们可以说到Web浏览器对于Web服务来说不是最重要的事情了吗？
Alex: Yeah, I certainly hope so. It seems like more and more of the destinations on the Web really have nothing to do with the Web. The Web is just incidentally the delivery vehicle but we’re not longer delivering hypertext. Like if you think about the Hulu video service that is quite popular in the US, I mean, it’s replacing TV for a whole demographic. That really has nothing to do with being on the Web. I mean you can kind of click around from one show to another but they very quickly delivered, I believe, an Adobe AIR based application maybe a few months, maybe a year after they had launched and for most of my friends, that’s their TV now. It’s running this Adobe AIR application that talks to Hulu and streams video. The web site is basically just you get registered on that and then they point you at the Adobe AIR app and that’s really the better way to interact with the service.
亚历克斯：是的，我当然希望如此。 似乎越来越多的Web目的地与Web毫无关系。 顺便说一下，Web只是传递工具，但我们不再传递超文本。 就像您想到在美国非常流行的Hulu视频服务一样，我的意思是，它正在取代整个人群的电视。 确实与上网无关。 我的意思是，您可以从一个节目单击到另一个节目，但是他们很快就发布了，我相信，基于Adobe AIR的应用程序可能要在发布后的几个月，大约一年之后发布，对于我的大多数朋友来说，这就是他们现在的电视。 它正在运行此Adobe AIR应用程序，该应用程序与Hulu对话并传输视频。 该网站基本上只是您在此注册的网站，然后他们将您指向Adobe AIR应用程序，这实际上是与服务进行交互的更好方法。
Kevin: I have to say here in Australia where we don’t get Hulu we’re all insanely jealous.
凯文：我不得不在澳大利亚说，我们没有得到Hulu，我们都疯狂地嫉妒。
Alex: Do you guys have Spotify though?
亚历克斯：你们有Spotify吗？
Kevin: No, no, we don’t even have that here.
凯文：不，不，我们什至没有。
Alex: You don’t have Spotify? Yeah, so in the US it’s like the tradeoff is we have Hulu but we don’t have Spotify, but you guys are getting screwed.
亚历克斯：您没有Spotify吗？ 是的，所以在美国，要权衡的是我们有Hulu但我们没有Spotify，但是你们都搞砸了。
Kevin: We get nothing.
凯文：我们什么也没有。
Alex: But yeah, I think that’s absolutely going to be more of a trend and honestly, looking down the road at solving problems beyond Twitter, I’ve been working in the browser for the majority of my career and it’ll be really, really nice to get out of that model a little bit. I like web services, I like working on API’s and that sort of thing but it seems like mobile, rich clients on the desktop, all these kinds of stuff is exciting. There’s a lot to learn there.
亚历克斯：但是，是的，我认为这绝对是一种趋势，说实话，在解决Twitter以外的问题的道路上，我一直在浏览器中工作，这是我职业生涯的大部分时间，离开该模型真的很高兴。 我喜欢Web服务，喜欢使用API之类的东西，但是好像桌面上的移动，富客户端一样，所有这些东西都是令人兴奋的。 那里有很多东西要学。
Kevin: Alex is @al3x on Twitter and thanks for taking the time, Alex.
凯文：亚历克斯在Twitter上的@ al3x ，感谢您抽出宝贵的时间，亚历克斯。
Alex: Thanks so much.
亚历克斯：非常感谢。
Kevin: And thanks for listening to the SitePoint Podcast. If you have any thoughts or questions about today’s interview, please do get in touch.
凯文：感谢您收听SitePoint播客。 如果您对今天的采访有任何想法或疑问，请保持联系。
You can find SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom, and you can find me on Twitter @sentience.
你可以在Twitter上找到SitePoint @sitepointdotcom ，你可以找到我的Twitter @sentience 。
Visit sitepoint.com/podcast to leave comments on this show and to subscribe to receive every show automatically. We’ll be back next week with another news and commentary show with our usual panel of experts.
访问sitepoint.com/podcast对该节目发表评论并订阅以自动接收每个节目。 下周我们将与我们通常的专家小组一起再次发布新闻和评论节目。
This episode of the SitePoint Podcast was produced by Karn Broad and I’m Kevin Yank. Bye for now!
这集SitePoint播客是由Karn Broad制作的，我叫Kevin Yank。 暂时再见！
Theme music by Mike Mella.
Mike Mella的主题音乐。
Thanks for listening! Feel free to let us know how we’re doing, or to continue the discussion, using the comments field below.
谢谢收听！ 欢迎使用下面的评论字段让我们知道我们的状况，或者继续讨论。
翻译自: https://www.sitepoint.com/podcast-39-web-futures-with-alex-payne/